• The Solar Journey

Episode #014 - Dr. Torsten Brammer at the University of Freiburg


Episode #014 with Torsten Brammer at the University of Freiburg:


In episode #014 Dr. Torsten Brammer speaks with the University of Freiburg located in Fahnenbergplatz, Germany.


Dr. Brammer is the host and founder of The Solar Journey Podcast, and currently serves as the CEO of WAVELABS Solar Metrology Systems GmbH, and CEO for Photovoltaic Research and Consulting.


With the University of Freiburg, Dr. Brammer discusses his personal solar journey and what he's learned as the show's host (from other solar experts). Tune in to hear more.


Connect with Dr. Torsten Brammer on LinkedIn.


Transcript:

[00:00:02.110] - Carolina

We have Torsten Brammer with us here today. And it is a really great honor because we are huge fans of his work and we are really… um, yeah, happy to have these type of resources that we can listen to while traveling or while going to bed. Me personally, I'm really a big fan of podcasts. So, yeah, we're really greatly thankful for Torsten to be here with us. This is a small week of events I was sharing with you. So very welcome to this session. We're going to be here for 30 to 40 minutes. We will be very grateful. If you can please keep your video and microphone off. And if you have any questions, please share them on the chat and we will revise them at the end. Yeah. So my name is Carolina Garcia. I'm working for Solar Energy Engineering, which is a Master's in solar energy online. And I'm going to get you through our program. As Torsten was asking just before we have students from all around the world. This is kind of the most updated map we have the pictures you see of people. There are people who study online, but come once a year to our University and the laboratories at Fraunhofer, who is our scientific partner.


[00:01:55.510] - Carolina

We are bringing this event to you together with the Wind and Energy system studies from the University of Kassel. And if you have any questions about any of these two programs, please feel free to contact us or just to find us online. So, yeah, very proudly and briefly. Twisting has pretty much experience in a lot of different solar energy areas. 25 years is definitely not a small number. He's gone from graduating in a Ph.D. to installing solar panels in Ghana to producing solar cells in different places and assisting startups to develop high technology. And now he's co-founder of WAVELABS. I hope I'm right. Please correct me. And at the same time, it's doing this wonderful podcast and meeting really high-level people and experts. So I don't know where do you find the time to do it? Maybe you could also give us some tips about how to manage family life, professional business, and serious hobbies that are of such high quality. So, yeah, I would love to pass you the screen and really listen to what you can share with us.


[00:03:33.850] - Torsten

Yeah. Carolina, excellent. Thanks for the kind introduction. Yes. Sometimes I do wonder if it's a little bit too much. Just now I returned from the playground with my little daughter. The two older ones are with their grandma today. And my wife just stopped work and took care of the small one. So it goes all hand in hand and nothing is allowed to go wrong. As soon as there's one disturbance, we do struggle. So I'm just a normal human with all the normal issues Carolina mentioned. I'm a co-founder and the CEO of WAVELABS. We are a manufacturer of solar simulators. So we built artificial Suns and they are used in the production lines for solar cells. And the solar journey on the other side is kind of my hobby. I started that not sure one and a half, two years ago or so, because I thought I need to because once you're in a company, you're pretty much focused on your very little niche thing. And with the family, I can't travel that much anymore. And I thought I need to work on my network and get new input on solar because I'm all about solar for the last 25 years and together with a friend who came up with the idea that I just should do a podcast and that allows me to meet people and get fresh ideas.


[00:05:15.570] - Torsten

And I hope many other listeners also get interested in solar and get excited about solar and maybe can develop business ideas directly from the talks or maybe with their neural network inside their brain develop their own business idea to get started in solar. The beautiful thing about solar is it's going to be the largest industry ever. Whatever you know about coal, gas, nuclear, this is all going to be small comparison to what solar is going to be. No matter if you're interested in solar, just go there. You can't go wrong, right? And I'll show you how many. I'll give you some examples from the people I talked to in the podcast, what they are doing. I'll also highlight what kind of skills or skills are required, how you can apply your skills and find a job in solar, and also summarize what is required, at least for my guests to start a successful company. Just let me jump in. I just summarized and if he did the best off, you can kind of get the best off of what I did over the last one and a half years with my ten guests. And actually now in a new we kind of started a new season.


[00:06:52.030] - Torsten

So I already recorded a few more sessions with new guests. I had to take it slowly last year, but now I'll do a lot more podcasts in 2022. So this is an example. Radovan Kopecek, check. Maybe some of the people know him because he lives in Constance in Southern Germany, close by and he's one of the founders of IC Constance. Let's say it's kind of a company, but they are actually organized in a nonprofit organization. They are like 60, 70 people, all mostly engineers, and they develop new solar cell technologies. They don't make solar cells. They just develop technology and do technology transfer to companies or startups who want to build solar cells on a gigawatt scale. So pretty interesting a business concept. So they are mostly R and D engineers with a business-oriented mindset. They travel the world and help people to set up production lines for solar cells with the latest technology. Radovan is a super interesting guy. He's also been in solar for a very long time. He's engaged massively, not only for his company, but he also is a big promoter of solar. And it's been very inspiring to talk to him.


[00:08:27.920] - Torsten

As soon as you go to a solar conference anywhere in the world, I'm sure you're going to meet him on one of the stages because he's going to be chairing a session. And only next week, if you're a technology person, go to Constance again, because there will be three workshops on solar cell technology. And he's one of the engines behind all those workshops and conferences. Wonderful guy. The last sessions we published. And this is Tobias Schuett. He's also a German citizen, a totally different sector with his company. The company is called DZ-4, but an odd name, but good company. Great company. And when you want to have solar energy on your roof, on your residential, if you own a house, if you want to have solar on your roof, you usually would need to go to an installer and ask him to install the system. And then you have to choose what's the right solar module, what's the right inverter? Maybe what's the right battery? Then you need to apply for the funding. You need to go to your bank. Maybe you don't have enough cash right now because you just built the house.


[00:09:43.970] - Torsten

So there's plenty of organizational and financing and then bureaucracy around having your own little solar system on your roof. And these at DZ-4 help you to do that, because you can actually rent solar systems from them. So they take care of the planning, they do the installation. And if you don't have enough cash, you can actually rent the solar system from them, but you benefit from the clean energy that is produced from your system on the roof. But you don't need to just make it very easy to get the solar system on your roof. So that's an interesting business concept, right? So you find that in all areas in solar, that it's not only about the technology and the cost, et cetera, but it's also about finding an interesting business model. And there are so huge opportunities to develop your own special business model somewhere in a niche and maybe then go global. Right? So this is really still possible in solar. So that's to be us. I enjoyed that talk. Also a lot. He's been also in solar for a long time. He used to work for a bank, did a lot of financing.


[00:11:05.610] - Torsten

Then later on, in his more senior years, he started his own company. And actually this company, I think was just acquired by a lot larger entity. And this is Harald from Scandinavia. So his company is called Alight. And again, interesting business model. So imagine you're a big Corporation, and until now, you got, I don't care energy, right? So you got energy from the electricity from a coal power plant or you don't even know where that electricity comes from. But now you decided it's good for the company, good for marketing, good for your own, let's say Karma to run your company with clean energy. Then you can talk to Harald and he takes care of that. You will get clean energy in the future. So he's doing kind of sourcing of clean energy for you. This is what his company is doing. And it's actually a pretty complex job. So this company, Alight, is very much a software company because you need to purchase trading electricity. As you can imagine, it's a complex job. But for example, if you were a company who builds furniture, you have to focus on building furniture and selling this furniture.


[00:12:43.270] - Torsten

Right. You can't get into sourcing clean energy. So you can outsource this job, sourcing clean energy to Harald’s company. Super interesting. And he's also has a pretty interesting CV. And he built this business model for his company also over years by working for other companies in the past. And then over time, he found this niche that sourcing clean energy for other entities can be profitable business. And this is Alexandra. She's an Austrian citizen. And by the time I talked to her, she used to work for GreenFact. That's a Norwegian company. And again, interesting business model. So GreenFact means they deliver facts about green energy. So what is that? So green energy that the previous guy knows it, right? You buy basically electricity is measured in kilowatt-hours. Okay. But if you want to source clean energy, you want to make sure that it was produced by a Windmill or it was produced by a solar park or maybe by a smartly built hydropower system. Right. You want to make sure that it's really clean and not kind of fake clean. So when you run a solar park, you're not only selling kilowatt-hours, but you're also selling a certificate that this kilowatt-hour that you just produced was produced by a truly green power plant.


[00:14:40.990] - Torsten

So when you trade electricity, green electricity, you are trading not only the kilowatt-hour, but also this certificate. So these certificates for per kilowatt-hour are traded European-wide. So that was mind-blowing for me to understand. By the time I talked to Alexandra, I was in solar for already 20 years. And I had no idea that this is required to trade certificates when it comes down to green electricity, solar electricity, wind electricity. So it's a pretty complex topic. And again, of course, lots of it is involved in trading certificates because that's as you can imagine, it's a purely virtual trading system. Pretty bizarre, very important. So that just gives you an idea, right. What he can do in solar. Right. So it's not only about installing, running an installation company that buys and resells solar modules and talks to house owners. There are lots and lots of different business opportunities in the renewables field. This was just a small view on what is possible in terms of business models. So in a summary, you can do R and D in solar cell technology. You can license technology. Other guys I talked to, they do macro studies.


[00:16:20.550] - Torsten

There are more like scientists micro studies on future energy systems. So, for example, what could be how can Europe, for example, or South America or only Mexico, for example? How can Mexico go 100% renewable energy? How is that possible? What kind of components do we need? So in Mexico, maybe on the coastline, I was in Baja California. There's plenty of wind. You want to use lots of wind from there. But Baha, California, hardly anyone lives there. And you need transmission lines, you need to need storage. There's also plenty of sun, but there's also seasonal changes. How do you design a Mexico renewable energy systems? Or maybe you want to look at it on a broader sense. What about South America or Central America? Maybe you need to look at the total system there. Right. So there's plenty of micro studies, and again, there's economical skills required, and again, it required engineering skills required. You need to understand what's the economics of those different energy systems super fascinating. The most straightforward thing you do can, of course, do installation of solar system. But again, as I showed you with to be us, there can be interesting models of leasing solar modules to the actual use of clean electricity.


[00:17:51.830] - Torsten

Then, as you can imagine, all industries require quality assurance. There needs to be certificates for that. The solar module is functioning well. Right. Then there's people who do big data analysis of power plants. So how can we optimize them? There's another company I talked to who does only that. Right. So they collect data of windmills and the solar parks and they look at the data and do machine learning and they try to figure out how can we optimize the power plant in the combination? How can we forecast the output of a solar park? Because you ask national metrology authorities, how much wind will we have tomorrow, when will the sun rise tomorrow? How much sun will be? Will there be a lot of cloud cover? Right. So for people who do sourcing of clean energy, they need to know that. Right. Because if you have a spot market and you want to know how much my solar electricity is going to be worth tomorrow, if there will be too much solar, it's going to be too cheap. Maybe. Right. If there's rare little sun tomorrow, then my clean electricity, I can sell it for a good price.


[00:19:13.080] - Torsten

Right. So there's plenty of these considerations to be done then. I mentioned Alexandra. She was in gathering facts on green certificates and trading green certificates. Then, of course, risk management very important. Right. So what happens if there's another since we talked about Mexico, what happens if. Okay, so there's plenty of sun in Mexico, but they have got volcanoes. What happens if a volcano erupts? Then maybe the solar park will be destroyed. Or maybe there will be a cloud cover for a few weeks. So this needs to be included in a risk management system for my solar park or for when I source or finance the solar park. Right. So pretty complex mathematical models required to assess the risks and then, of course, sourcing green electricity, which is kind of a mix of all the previous aspects. And again, this is not a complete list. There's plenty. Plenty more. All right. And then one of my classic questions I asked. My guess is what is required to bring solar to the next level? Right. So we're in a good for the last 20 years, solar was growing with ten to 20% each year, not in every country, but on a global scale.


[00:20:50.510] - Torsten

But how can we accelerate the deployment of solar? So that was my classic last question in the podcast. And I have listed here a few options. Right. So is it the availability of solar modules or is it the capital costs of windmills? Right. If you need to finance that and on the horizontal line, you can see how many people agreed on that aspect. So when we look at the bottom four, one, it's not relevant. Right. For example, costs per kilowatt-hour. They say solar and wind. It's already the cheapest source of energy worldwide. Coal is more expensive. Nuclear is the most expensive source of energy anyhow. And it just keeps going up, actually. Now, the discussion about keep, for example, the nuclear reactors running in Europe is just crazy because it's so crazy and expensive. So that's not an issue at all. Even the efficiency of solar cells is not an aspect. Right. It's more about competition between the solar cell manufacturers. So it's not required to deploy more solar when it comes to capital costs. Then actually, Harald said, yeah, this is actually one of the bottlenecks. The capital costs, I mean, credit from the bank were pretty cheap in the past.


[00:22:18.770] - Torsten

But he still says it's one of the key drivers for the cost of solar electricity or wind electricity. And he says that's interesting. I tuned in again last night just to do that poll. And he said actually to invest into solar and wind is one of the most reliable investments he can think of. Interesting. But still, he thinks the capital costs are too high. And that's why he thinks capital costs are still too high. Right? Yeah, durability is a bit of an issue. Still, only a 10% sent off all my guests, of course, wind and solar. Right. The sun always only shines during the day. The wind doesn't blow from all around the day. So, of course, the 24/7 availability of green electricity is an issue. But with the deployment with more interconnection of large regions. Right. So, for example, if Europe would hook up to Africa if Europe would build one would be all super connected in terms of electricity, then the output is improved. Right. We still have nighttime across all of Europe, for example, Mexico or Venezuela. But it helps to have a large system. But then, of course, storage systems will become massive aspect.


[00:23:54.590] - Torsten

And with electric vehicles and other forms of storage, this will be resolved pretty soon. Right. And actually the learning curve. So the speed at which the cost for per store kilowatt-hour is going down dramatically, even faster than, than the speed at which the cost for solar electricity went down. So basically, but to have a complete system 24/7 availability is indeed a fact. So if you have smart ideas for storage, do it. And then surprisingly, the key issue to bring solar to the next level is regular on a regulatory level. So policy. Right. Legislation, get rid of bureaucracy, make sure you remove all the thresholds, all the obstacles that are installed in all countries. Germany is not bad in solar. Right. But there's still a lot of bureaucracy. To get a Windmill set up or a solar system set up, even for tiny, tiny systems, you have to fill out many, many forms. And it's pretty much like that in almost all countries across the world. You can see 60% of all my guests said on a regulatory level, get rid of bottlenecks, get rid of bureaucracy. This is really driving. If you get rid of that, this would really accelerate the environment of solar and wind electricity.


[00:25:38.630] - Torsten

Super fascinating, right. And then many of those companies I talked to, people I talk to, they were actually founders of just like me for with WAVELABS. And that's why I'm also eager to understand from them what was their key, learning to set up their company. Because when you build a new company from scratch, you go through many valleys of death. At WAVELABS, we are working a lot with a book called Scaling Up. The author is Vern Harnish and it's built on the Rockefeller habits. I can only recommend that to read that. It's mind blowing. Wonderful know how gathered in that book. So if you want to improve your management skills, if you want to consider to run a Department, or if you just want to anticipate what your boss might ask from you, then go and get that book, Scaling Up by Vernon Harnish anyhow. So I asked my people, the guests, what was important to become a successful company. And many said it's all about the team. You need to choose your people wisely. Business is always people's business. It's of course about the product. That's the next thing. But with a shitty team, you're not going to get anywhere.


[00:27:10.800] - Torsten

Right. So choose wisely, who you want to start a company with, then, of course, know your product well, know the industry well, know the tech well. That's of course important. Understand the market. So keep talking to your customers. Maybe you need to pivot. Maybe you need to adjust the design of your product because you anticipated a customer demand. But actually, when you listen closely to your customers, they might ask for something else. Even today, after ten years at WAVELABS, we just learned last week that many customers buy our product for a reason we didn't know of. So we wanted to change a little tiny feature on our product. And then suddenly they all went, what the hell are you doing? This was one of your best features, right. And we didn't know. Crazy. After ten years in the market, particularly if you have an international team, or if you build your team or build your company for you foreign country, or if your customers are in a foreign country, for example, WAVELABS. Our customers are mainly in China because this is where most of the solar manufacturing is going on. You need to understand and be open to the local culture.


[00:28:40.670] - Torsten

And this can be sometimes pretty mind-blowing. You need to be patient. Sometimes it's super surprising, right. And this is a pretty international team here. You might have experienced that yourself in the past. So experience with international teams definitely helps in a globalized world we live in today. And then, of course, once you have funding or maybe you put in your own money, manage cash flow, right. So it's actually you think you want to make a profit. But more important is to show that you always have money in the bank. And that's actually a difference. I'm not going to into details some of most of you might know, but it's a difference between being profitable and have money in the bank. Right. And it's more important to have money in the bank rather than be profitable, because at the end of the month you have to pay the salary of your employees. You have to pay the rent. You might want to have a little salary yourself to get some food and pay the rent for yourself. So manage cash flow, be super precise on that. And then you start with a small team, maybe a one man show, and then you hire one or two or three guys.


[00:30:13.660] - Torsten

And then suddenly you are a team of ten. And then suddenly you have hierarchy levels, not only you and one below above you, but then you have multiple hierarchy levels. And then interaction becomes more complex. You need different management skills. Business becomes more complex for that. Also, scaling up the book I mentioned is very good in preparing you for that. So you have to revolve from a founder to a CEO or whatever senior manager, or you decide you remain the specialist. But then you need to hire senior management. So that's also a pretty important aspect that you need to consider that over time, as the company grows, you need to adopt either hire a new boss for yourself or you need to become a leader and that's it. Thanks for listening. And I'm happy to discuss whatever you want to discuss if you have questions.


[00:31:18.820] - Carolina

Thank you so much, Torsten. I'm just shocked because I think this talk should be at the beginning of all our courses. I think it's really positive not to know and to have so much certainty about the future of the solar industry or in general, the renewable industries, and to feel that people who are in this path are in the right path, people who are not they still have time to join and go for one of these areas that you mentioned before. And it's a really exciting time. I think all of us knew we were in the right place, but now we're even more and more convinced about it. So thank you so much for making this really so positive for us in this industry. So I would like to invite you guys if anybody has any questions person has a lot of experience in different things. He is running this wonderful podcast. And I'm personally really looking forward to the next chapters that you might be releasing soon. You can also find Torsten on Twitter, you can find him on Spotify, on YouTube, on Amazon. I guess you can also just have a look at the blog itself.


[00:32:49.160] - Carolina

And there's a lot of information there about this great people he's been in contact with. But if you have any questions at the moment, this is your chance before we let him go. Yeah. Thank you so much. It's really great. I just had one question maybe about the graphics when you're saying what have the people that you have interviewed said that it's necessary to really push the renewable industry or the solar industry? And you said that bureaucracy and paperwork and all that. And I remember a talk with Bruno Burger from the energy charts where he was driving the history of the solar industry in Germany. And I don't know what percentage of this bottleneck of bureaucracy. It's really just in financial interest. Some things are just so possible and so ready to be applied. And then just the convenience of all the businesses that the politicians, the friends they have in the oil industry or who knows, in these other industries, these type of connections don't really badly don't allow them to choose the right things, which it's clearly the renewable energy. I don't know if you want to be too political to say that, but I just think.


[00:34:31.130] - Torsten

Yeah, I mean, in the past there were lots of obstacles and you wonder why they were there. Right. And of course, people many thought or assume that there's lobby isn't behind it to make it really complicated. Right. So that many just give up and say, well, I can't be bothered. Right. I've got a life myself and I can't become a pro in installing my little solar system or investing into a solar asset.


[00:35:05.850] - Carolina

And the crazy thing is that we have seen, it is possible to drastically apply huge changes. We have to do it with the Corona.


[00:35:16.780] - Torsten

Yeah, exactly. And once mankind chooses to make a change, then we can. Right. Because all the regulation is man made. Right. It's not a natural law. Right. Like E equals MC Square. That's a natural law. Right. But bureaucracy is set up by us. Right. So we build it and we can remove it. Right?


[00:35:46.690] - Carolina

Exactly.


[00:35:51.090] - Torsten

Yeah. It can be removed. And I think I mean, now in Germany, we have a new government with the Greens involved. And many in Germany now hope that we again push solar energy a lot stronger than we used to. In the last ten years. We were pretty good. It slowed down massively because of lobbyism, I believe. And now with everything that's going on in the world, I think people are aware that with the climate crisis, with the obvious consequences that we need to do something. Right. And energy independence has become a new topic. And actually in Germany, it was actually the starting point to set up to start look at solar energy in the past. The initiation came from the Liberal Party and they discovered that Germany depends on oil imports too heavily. So this is why they set up the first initiatives to promote solar, because they thought, well, then we become energy independent and we don't need to rely on import and do compromises on the choices. Right. The people we work with. And that's like 30 years ago or 40 years ago. And the Liberal Party forgot about they were actually the people who were the first movers.


[00:37:27.210] - Torsten

Right. And fortunately now, very recently, for obvious reasons, they rediscovered and they call it now the freedom energy. Right. Because any country, as soon as you install a Windmill or a solar park, then you can produce your own electricity. Wonderful.


[00:37:49.570] - Carolina

There is one more question from Tommy. He's asking if you think that solar impact businesses, sorry, renewables or solar impact businesses can be also profitable.


[00:38:08.390] - Torsten

My company is profitable. Any industry has to be profitable to be sustainable. Right. Because you can't invest a dollar and then those $2, I mean, you can do that initially, right. But in the long run, anything good needs to be profitable. Right. Because otherwise there is no value in what you create. And there's energy company, all solar companies that have been around for the last year, they are profitable, right? Definitely. It's the cleanest source of energy. Right. So if you produce all electricity, then you are the most profitable energy company.


[00:38:56.630] - Carolina

I don't know if you want to turn your microphone on if it's possible for you. Rami saying that he means that they can just work for making impact business model. Shall I unmute you? I don't want to force you to have a positive impact on the environment or so. Yeah.


[00:39:28.450] - Torsten

Definitely. I mean, solar has a positive impact, right. So you reduce the CO2 emissions. And by that you help to at least protect the climate we have now. And we are very used to the climate we have now. And we shouldn't change it too much. Right. Because you don't know what's going to happen. Right. Deserts might become larger deserts and a small rain might turn into a massive Hurricane. We see that in Germany. We see that in many parts of the world that the climate does change with the dramatic consequences for humans mostly, of course, but also animals, everything. Right. Everything can change.


[00:40:24.990] - Student

Hi Torsten interesting presentation. So I have a question that I'm also in the renewable energy part because I'm also working for the solar energy engineering part. But it always monitors me. For example, is the grid or the technology or the things are ready for 100% renewable energy because one just example from my family in India, like, we just installed a solar panel at home. And the grid people told that they don't have the capacity to take the energy from us to the grid because the grid is so unstable. So do you think it is possible in a few years to change everything, all the infrastructure, for example, the country like India, which is really big, and the credit infrastructure is so the electricity is not yet 100% like how it is in Germany, for example. You don't have electricity for 100%, 24 hours of time.


[00:41:18.340] - Torsten

Yeah, definitely. I mean, it does work in Germany. Right. I mean, when I was I think I was doing maybe my Ph.D. So that's a long time ago, smart engineers said that you can't have 100% renewables. It's impossible because of the grid. Right. There is a clear maximum of 20%. You can't do more than 20% renewable because it's fluctuating. Now in Germany, many decades later, we have already at least hours and minutes where 100% of the electricity demand is covered by renewables. Right. So whatever people said back then was nonsense. Right. Let's say what you described. It's just engineering. Right. I think it's always important to define is there a natural limit like E equals MC square? Right. Einstein's famous equation, or is it just engineering? Right. And with just engineering, it might take time. We might not need to have a little bit of innovation. We might need to invest. Right. And I can believe I've never been to India. I hopefully I will travel next year, next month, actually. But I can imagine I was in Ghana, that in some parts the grid is very basic. Then, of course, lots of money has to go into investing into a grid, make it stable.


[00:43:06.690] - Torsten

Right. Very fundamentally. But that's just doing it. Right. Nothing special, honestly.


[00:43:17.570] - Student

Nice. Thank you.


[00:43:25.410] - Carolina

Thank you so much for that. Thank you for your questions. I can't see anybody else having many more questions. I think it was all really clear and graphic. I would like to talk to you twisting about maybe the use of this really insightful talk video, maybe we can entice you to let us use it.


[00:43:48.830] - Torsten

Sure and share it. Yeah, I will.


[00:43:52.710] - Carolina

Thank you so yeah, thank you. In the name of Fraunhofer ISE Academy UNI Kassel and UNI Freiburg and we hope to see some of you tomorrow in our last day, please visit Torsten and blog. You won't regret it. You will be hooked in and if any of you have topics that you wanted to share as we said to us and offer the option to give some space to some people yes, we can also discuss that by email if necessary. So thank you everyone.


[00:44:38.410] - Torsten

Yeah, thanks a lot for tuning in and feel free to contact me. You find my email address on the website Solar Journey block and my email address is torsten@solarjourney.blog. Feel free to contact me. Happy to stay in touch and all the best for your future career. Talk later.


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